Hey all -
On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 6:58:37 PM UTC-5, Michael Smith wrote:
-- I'm a Navy Diver and have been working around water (warm and cold) for a long time. I'm not saying I am the guru on this stuff, but I would say this is definitely an area where you want to minimize risk.
A dry suit worn properly (properly zipped up and latex cuffs adjusted properly) is the safest option if you are planning on traveling far from your starting point/going into deeper water. You would wear a fleece jumper suit or layered synthetic long johns inside as well to keep you warm - stay away from cotton long johns because with physical exertion, your sweat will stay close to your body and pull heat from you faster (that's how your body dumps heat in the warmer months - sweating and evaporative cooling). If you fall off your water craft (Sit on top kayak, Sit inside kayak, SUP, boat), the suit will keep you from getting wet in the first place and you don't lose your heat.
The next best option is an appropriately sized neoprene wetsuit. All the wetsuit manufacturers should have information on what thickness is needed in what water temps you will be hanging out in. When I SUP surf in the winter, I wear a 5/4 (5 mm in the core area, 4 mm in the arms/legs) with a hood, gloves and booties. If the surf is clean, I don't wipe out much, but if the noreasters are blowing, I wipeout more than I will admit. With a wetsuit, you actually want a thin layer of water in your suit. The neoprene holds the water later close to you, your body heats up that water layer and the air bubbles in the neoprene rubber suit keeps the heat in that water and your body insulated from the cold water outside. If I expect to be out of the water more (sailing small boats or SUP surfing in cleaner waves) I will opt to use a thinner wetsuit - like a 3/2.
The problem with waders is if you go overboard and water does get in - your objective will be to get back into/on your watercraft - be it a SUP, SOTK, SIK, boat. If the 8.3333 pounds per gallon of water surpasses your ability to lift yourself/attached gear/extra water weight back on to your watercraft, you have a problem. You are immersed in cold water, can't lift yourself back onto your craft because of the trapped water, and may be too far from shore to swim back. A tight fitting dry top, wading belt and foam pfd can help slow the water intrusion, but there is greater risk than the other two setups.
There was an article in Kayak Fishing magazine about this same issue a couple of years back. They tested a few set ups (drysuit, wetsuit, waders) - I don't remember their exact findings, but I do remember them saying the drysuit option was the most protective against the effects of the cold water exposure.
You'll want to wear a pfd (as always) too
Lastly - I know Chris S on this forum has taken his SUP out on the Potomac during the winter - there is a Youtube video out there that has him "icebreaking". He was using a drysuit. Checkout to local windsurfing shops (windsurfers have similar issues) for drysuits.
Vic
On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 6:58:37 PM UTC-5, Michael Smith wrote:
In my yak, I routinely hang my legs over the side because it's a sit-on-top. It's also self-bailing but I usually get at least a little wet. In the winter, you're more likely to die of hypothermia in a kayak than you are to drown. I wear stockingfoot breathable wafers with a belt and a PFD and have no fear. In the winter, if you spill you need to return to shoe immediately to avoid hypothermia, just like you do when you go for a swim while fishing for steelhead or salmon.
And my PFD never comes off when I'm in the kayak. All it takes is a wave I didn't see and I'm in the water. I also carry a pilots knife on my PFD so I can cut lines/laces/suspenders/etc in an emergency.
Also safety for kayaks: you must be able to spill the kayak of your own accord and do self-recovery before you take it anywhere. This is one of the first safety rules you learn. If you do this in shallow water, you can see how well your waders work or don't work. If you don't know how to do any of this, look on YouTube for instructional videos.
Michael Smith, CISSP-ISSEP
ryb...@ryzhe.ath.cx @rybolov
http://www.guerilla-ciso.com
Sent from my Android-capable Internet-connected toaster. Please ignore my Unix-like terseness----- Reply message -----
From: "Matthew Longley" <matthew...@gmail.com>
To: <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com >
Subject: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Kayak-toon-SUP- in the winter?
Date: Wed, Nov 6, 2013 6:40 PMRegardless of whether waders would pull you down or keep you up, isn't the whole reason Gene suggested wearing waders in his kayak to keep warm and dry? Is anyone contesting that if you fall in with waders, sink or float, you're wet?--
On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 4:28:52 PM UTC-5, Eric Y. wrote:Yeah, forgot to mention my waders were breathables. I can see the rubber waders dragging you right down - mostly because they are not only heavy, but stiff and hard to get out of. My hunting waders are a size too large for me (Orvis was only selling 14US bootfoots as an XXL at the time and may still), which probably helped a lot in my "wet exit." In my experience, the top filled up immediately and out of instinct and panic, I popped the belt buckle and the whole thing filled. Because they took on so much water, they practically pulled themselves off. Regardless, a PFD worn tight would have changed a lot of things. I've since bought an inflatable camo PFD, but it wouldn't have helped as much in this instance as a paddling-specific PFD.
On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 2:05:23 PM UTC-5, Jeff Silvan wrote:Rob - you can test it out at home. Full your bathtub, then fill your waders. If they float, it'll act as life preserver (or at least won't drag you down). If it's a more dense material like some rubber, it'll sink and act as a weight. Whether or not you're in the waders won't change the buoyant properties of the waders themselves.
I looked into the whole idea a bit more, and the results of getting dumped in your waders depends is highly dependent upon the type of wader. Neoprene floats, but doesn't have significant buoyant forces, so it won't drag you down if they flood, but will still make it harder to swim. A lot of modern materials used in waders are fairly neutrally buoyant, but all still make it very hard to swim, relative to a situation where you should be swimming. Here are a few links to documented stories (some very old) about people drowning at least in part because of their waders. There are tons of similar articles out there, but the most common trend is a combo of the waders making it too challenging to swim and some sort of current. None were wearing PFDs, which likely could have saved all their lives.
http://www.madisoniannews.com/
ennis-man-dies-in-fishing- accident/
http://articles.latimes.com/1986-02-18/local/me-9277_1_ apparent-drowning
http://www.denverpost.com/colorado/ci_21629954/colorado- man-dies-while-fishing-montana
http://thedailyworld.com/sections/news/local/fisherman- found-dead-near-ocean-shores- second-man-found-ok.html
On Nov 6, 2013 11:26 AM, "Rob Snowhite" <r...@robsnowhite.com> wrote:--For got to mention that's weight per pound. I'll try to let the community center life guards let me jump in with waders on film tomorrow. Tpfr version of myth busters.On if my favorite authors, Ken Miyata drown while wearing waders. I also always wear a pfd on boats.
Sent from my iPhoneYeah really -- Rob, are you sure about those sig figs? ;)--No - I do take this seriously and appreciate the wisdom. I just read a post where some guy went out a few days back and my first thought was "wetsuit"? Cold + Water is nothing to mess with if you don't know what you're doing. And I have no idea honestly -- and I don't want to die before I develop type II diabetes in my 40's. My father says eating whole wheat pasta is a real rush --Gene
On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:36:26 AM UTC-5, Joe Molloy wrote:Thanks...and with the water weight to the thousandth of a pound...that's hard core!On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Rob Snowhite <r...@robsnowhite.com> wrote:
I have filled up waders when a boat capsized. I was neutrally buoyant and floated with the current. I was heavy and burdened when exiting the water. Water weighs 8.333 pounds when out of water not in it.
Sent from my iPhoneTo view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msI'm curious just how waders can act as an anchor? I have yet to be totally submerged while wearing waders and can understand how it would be difficult to get off and boots would make swimming difficult but once you are in the water wouldn't they behave just like normal clothing that is wet (i.e. heavy, movement restricting)?Has anyone been fully submerged or gone into a pool with waders to test this?-Joe--On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Jeffrey Silvan <jeffre...@gmail.com> wrote:
Gene - please don't wear waders I'm any sort of boat. If you flip in your kayak, your chances of survival are very low. If they fill with water, they'll become an anchor and be almost impossible to get off. Neoprene helps since they fit tighter and tend to float (without being filled with you and water), but still isn't the safest. Maybe just throw a rain suit over your warm clothes?
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msOn Nov 6, 2013 8:21 AM, "TurbineBlade" <doubl...@gmail.com> wrote:--Hi -- any of you keep kayak fishing through the winter? The idea interests me, but I don't own a Mustad survival suit and was wondering how to not die out there. Even paddling drips a fair amount of water into the kayak ----I guess I could just put on the neoprene chest waders and layer up?Any wisdom you'd like to pass along?Thanks --
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